Levels of Pain and Enjoyment
Categorizing how suffering can be enjoyable
People brought up that there is voluntary pain when I argued “is suffering axiomatically bad”. I agree in the existence of voluntary pain being a thing, and something I have experienced.
I will try to now get a more thorough framework about how I think about it.1
In the previous post, I wrote:
this is one case where language is a bit inadequate.
I think it is very possible for “suffering” to be good. There are two cases for this:
“suffering” in which states are described as negative, but which are still positive valence. One example of this is the burn one feels from spicy food. This still feels good and is pleasurable, despite nominally having aspects which are described as bad. […]
“suffering” in which one was actually in pain/suffering at the time of the even, but which leads one to better mental states after the fact.
I have experienced both. Suffering can be a way to describe this, if the experience is also either positive-valence, or leading to longer-term pleasure, then I’m not sure it counts.
I will most focus mostly on the first of these.
Types of Fun
It is worth, for reference, knowing that there are 3 types of fun, and it’s worth knowing about all three.
type 1 fun = enjoy now and enjoy looking back
E.g: going for a nice walk somewhere scenic
type 2 fun = not enjoy now but enjoy looking back
E.g: doing something difficult, like intense sports, but looking back you enjoy it, and would do it again. (challenging, etc)
type 3 fun = not enjoy now or looking back, but it’s at least a good story.
E.g: You end up in a dangerous tedious scenario. You may or may not regret doing it, but would not do it again.
This can be broken down into axes like “experiencing self” and “remembering self”, as well as some vague degree of regret/endorsement.
I think this has been useful, but I find when it comes to some degrees of masochism, it is also maybe useful to categorize types of pain enjoyment.
Enjoyment of Pain
Before categorizing pain, I think it’s worth having a disclaimer: The same physical sensation can be experienced very differently depending on the context. There is like a default “bad state vs good state” that people can apply to things like physical pain, but often this can be reinterpreted.
Some examples of bad pain: feeling subtly too cold and uncomfortable. Feeling physically ill. Having chronic pain.
Some examples of pain that are sometimes good: spicy food, pinching, biting, scratching, extreme cold after extreme hot, cathartic crying.
Even the “good pains” are often pretty subjective. Many people, do not experience these as enjoyable.
General mood and state of mind also affects it hugely. One factor for this is [did I consent to this] but there are others. This applies to all levels, but for higher levels of pain it becomes more difficult to enter a mental state where you can enjoy it.
Levels of Pain
level 0 pain - (Type 1 fun)
This is relatively light physical interaction, rubs and light scratches.
Very often nice. low to moderate pressure, not enough to be described painful. This is just like, pretty normal, can be exciting but less so.
level 1 pain - (Type 1 fun)
Described as slightly to somewhat painful, but still just feels directly physically nice.
It’s like level 0 but more intense. This depends on pain tolerance of the person. In terms of net physical enjoyment, this is often where the peak is, it is slightly more exciting than level 0 too.
level 2 pain - (Type 1 or type 2 fun)
This is just straight up painful.
Usually the peak direct physical enjoyment was reached before this level, and often it can be the case the that physical enjoyment is less than the pain, but there is some additional excitement from being at this higher level too.
There is usually a feeling of needing to flinch or resist the pain. Some of the enjoyment is from needing to put in effort to resist flinching, or from resisting and being overpowered.
If in some moods where you haven’t done this in a while, it can often be type 1 fun. If done in other moods where you are maybe too sensitive, it can still be kind of fun, but less so, more like type 2.
level 3 pain - (Type 2 or Type 3 fun, or just not fun)
Very high pain / consistency in pain.
Being here long enough you can often start to break down crying.
At this point it becomes very difficult not to resist as hard as you can. The direct physical enjoyment is mostly gone now. Any enjoyment at this level is mostly from mental games. As such, getting enjoyment from this is the most difficult.
There is some battle of [just give in and accept the pain] and [no I need to fight back], which makes this difficult. Feeling like you are able to just give in and stop resisting can make it feel good. Being in a mood of particularly low self-worth can make this easier too.
When done right, this can feel very freeing. Letting go of free will and just submitting to the pain, letting go of the responsibility to the world for that moment, or feeling like you are getting the mistreatment what you deserve.
When done wrong, this level of pain could easily be traumatic.
The levels can be positive or negative valence.
All the above are mental states where the positive valence is achievable for some. It is also worth knowing that there exists pain that just becomes no longer fun. I try to describe how level 3 pain can feel positive valence, but many experiences like this can be negative valence
Some examples:
level 2: I think I found some types of journalling I did to be quite mentally difficult, looking into my own soul and plainly stating that which I feel most shame and embarrassment about, making it ready to be shared with others. But it was still kind of cathartic in a way when doing it.
level 3: I remember getting electrolysis hair removal, and it was at this level of pain. I had a semi-breakdown, and it was not enjoyable. I came back another time, with numbing cream and ibuprofen, and it was probably more like high level 2 or low level 3, but I managed to give in and submit to the pain, and somehow enjoy the feeling for a while. It was hard to replicate though.
Closing
I think about these levels of pain often, and I guess the graph of how people experience them might differ a lot, even for the same person as they are younger or older or in different contexts.
I think overall, it is quite difficult to enjoy level 3 pain, and often overcoming it makes it just become another type of type 2 pain.
Note that I did not really spend much time reading about this topic at all, I am more-so just describing my lived experience
Certainly an interesting read. As a decidedly not transhumanist, I’ve often wondered what is to be done from that perspective with suffering unavoidable? Given that the ostensible goal is to transcend human limitations, what is to be done when they meet us unavoidably?